Boeing, IAM Fail To Reach Agreement - 787 Likely To Be Delayed Further
October 14th, 2008
787 First Flight To Slip As Impasse Shows No Sign Of Ending
Only an optimist would have predicted that the first set of talks between Boeing and the IAM union in several weeks could have resulted in a new deal that would have seen workers return to the assembly lines of the 7-series airplanes in both Everett and Renton.
While many will see the disagreements as a breakdown in talks, both sides will have walked away knowing more about what the other side seeks and what is or isn’t needed to be done in being able to reach an amicable settlement.
Image copyright/owned by FleetBuzz Editorial.com
Under the immediate spotlight is the 787 Dreamliner, which is now almost certain to make its maiden flight in 2009.
“There is no question that a prolonged strike will move the [787] first flight into next year. But we don’t know how long it will last.
“We are looking very closely at it. An extended strike will push the first flight into next year. Whether we are in an extended strike [situation] is something we are looking at,” says Boeing’s VP Marketing, Randy Tinseth.
For its part, the IAM is still concerned that a loss of jobs based on future outsourcing of Boeing programmes is the heart of the matter.
“…it has become apparent that the long-term strategy of The Boeing Company is to eliminate these IAM positions and replace the Union workers with outside suppliers,” says the IAM’s website.
Naturally, Boeing’s CEO would refute this with the emailed statement last week indicating how over 10,000 IAM/SPEEA jobs had been created since 2005, despite the fact it being well known to all parties that then (2004) newly launched 787 Dreamliner would have a unique approach to its design, development and production involving partners from around the globe - perhaps the fears the IAM presents is not as apocalyptic as it first appears.
To a certain extent, such work distribution empowers the very nations seeking to challenge both Airbus and Boeing, and the Boeing will be loathe to hand such critical work to parties who would then undermine and damage its future. At the same time, collaboration is inevitable if it secures jobs in Puget Sound. A new competitor subsidised by Governments like Airbus is would make it hard for Boeing to compete and layoffs across the board could never be ruled out.
“While the talks did not produce the outcome we had hoped for, we continue to be open to talks with the IAM on these important issues of competitiveness and productivity. At this time, no new talks are scheduled,” says Boeing’s Doug Kight.
Image courtesy of Emirates
”We worked very hard to find solutions, and we are extremely disappointed that the talks broke off,” he went on to say.
Some would argue that talk is cheap - however, in light of the fact the two sides have sat down to discuss their differences can only be construed as a positive move in the hope that further talks ensue with a view to a mutual agreement on ending the stalemate.
In the meantime, it would be wise for both parties to perhaps agree to a resumption of work to deliver the Boeing jets the world’s airlines are so desperate to have.
Losing their business is what will end up costing both the union its jobs and Boeing its future customers.
(Prior articles on the Boeing/IAM strike can be found by clicking these links here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here, here and here.)
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19 Comments Add your own
1. Graphite Epoxy | October 14th, 2008 at 8:25 am
Sorry Fleetbuzz.
It’s most definatly not in the IAM’s best interests to go back under the old contract.
It should be readily apparant that Boeing is going to have to be compelled by the force of the strike to settle. Going back will change nothing, and Boeing won’t all of a sudden play nice if we did.
It’s also apparant that my prediction that this was just a ploy sto sap our morale was accurate.
Boeing is set on offloading our jobs. They demand the ability to do so even if we do it better and cheaper.
And they will try regardless. Even if we had accepted the final offer they would have.
No, there is nothing to be gained by returning under the expired contract.
2. Grace | October 14th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Mr Epoxy you do get around. Withholding labor is a thing of the past. If the strike isn’t over soon folks will cross jsut to eat. Youer unemployment comes from being there not outside. If there is retirement it comes from there. The union offers $150 per week. Its rainy, cold and isolating out here. I for one will not starve for your greed.
3. mike j | October 14th, 2008 at 9:10 am
I’m a little bummed-out.
It is really troubling to see Corporate America’s determination to outsource every worker’s job and kill the Middle-Class.
Here is the IAM’s update:
Strike Update - October 13, 2008
Statement by IAM District 751 President
The Federal Mediators adjourned talks today between the Machinists Union and the Boeing Company without reaching an agreement. The Union had hoped Boeing would come to the table looking to resolve this strike, which is in its fifth week; however, this was not the case.
The Company is attempting to put the Union in an unacceptable position to bargain away our members’ jobs. The Union currently has 2000 members involved in material delivery, inventory, distribution of parts, materials, equipment, etc. Throughout these talks and in earlier statements made by the Company, it has become apparent that the long-term strategy of The Boeing Company is to eliminate these IAM positions and replace the Union workers with outside suppliers. The words “flexibility” and “competitiveness” for Boeing appear to mean eliminating IAM jobs. It is a systematic attack on the employees who have generated unprecedented success for Boeing. If Boeing succeeds in their plan, it is our members’ concern this will expand to other jobs in the factory.
The IAM is interested in bargaining a contract for the future, which provides success for Boeing and for our workforce — but Boeing has a different agenda. We expect to be a part of the future of the Boeing Company and remain committed to achieving a resolution that protects our members and their families.
The fact is our members have bent over backwards for this Company to make them profitable. We have participated in every lean program, new initiative, fixed vendor mistakes and offered alternative ideas - all to make them successful. It is our members who consistently step up and get the job done for Boeing. We will continue to do that, but not at the price of our jobs. The Union will continue to look for ways to resolve this strike so that our members can return to building airplanes and making Boeing record profits, but it cannot be at the price of selling out thousands of our members’ jobs.
Keep in mind other top issues are still not resolved, i.e. medical, wages, and pensions.
Be sure to visit our web site at http://www.iam751.org for current news.
4. Angel/MT-4 | October 14th, 2008 at 10:14 am
Here are two excerpts from The Seattle Times-Monday, October 13th:
[As long as the Machinists are out, "we will continue to negotiate and draw wages," said Larry Marrell, of the SPEEA negotiating team. "There's no real leverage for us to go out on the street at the same time."]
[If SPEEA strikes, not only production work, but most such after-sales activity would also stop, shrinking Boeing's revenue on the commercial side to almost zero.]
As I am merely a 1-year employee, I am not as seasoned of a Union member than a lot of you here, so would like to pose a few questions please:
Is it possible that Boeing is avoiding talks and all IAM Negotiations until SPEEA’s contract is dealt with so as to avoid giving them that “leverage”?
Would SPEEA be less apt to strike if we were to remain on strike ourselves?
Maybe this is all some undermined plan by Boeing?
Lastly, if the IAM Machinists were to end the strike and resume our work, what would happen to us if SPEEA decided to strike? I saw a mention of bringing in Contracted Engineers & Technicians, but also noted the Union questioned whether or not they would be able to handle the workload.
Thanks.
5. Grace | October 14th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Stall out goes like this: The gobal outsourcing mechanism has broken down. The banks all over the world are seeking bailouts at the expense of their people not corporate anywhere. Boeing leasing lost its connection for folks to pick up their planes. AMT is hiring in Arlington or do what you must do in the interum because Boing is not doing work at these wages anymore. The markets recovered but not to the extent Boeing needs to talk to IAM. Speea is not foolish enough to through a strike like we did in this global disconnection.
6. boeing investor | October 14th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
Angel MT4 is smart - she realizes that this strike benefits no one and the SPEEA, may risk striking, but end up with less than before.
Talks will help, only if the unions drop their unrealistic demands for “job security”.
In 21st centruy USA, there is no such thing.
7. Aurora | October 14th, 2008 at 1:49 pm
One news report I read contained this statement: “Union officials have said their members should at least have the right to bid against outside companies for work traditionally done by the machinists.”
Why not give the union the ability to at least bid? Or does the right to “bid” confer the subsequent ability to “protest” and “sue” if they lose the bid? If that’s the worry, then an agreement could be reached where the union would waive any subsequent protests or lawsuits if they lost the bid. This doesn’t have to be a show stopper.
8. DonS | October 14th, 2008 at 3:52 pm
RE Angel/MT-4 | October 14th, 2008 at 10:14 am
The SPEEA process and timing for a strike is different than that of the IAM. It is **almost** impossible for SPEEA to strike before mid- December. It is VERY likely that IF SPEEA does go out on strike it would be the first weeks in 2009.
In an extreme case- Boeing * could * force the SPEEA techs into a 3 day or so week, but cannot do the same with the Profs ( generally the degreed professionals ) due to various labor laws. If Boeing were to do such a thing, they would still have to pay the Profs by the week- thus no benefit or saving of payroll.
And keep in mind, the pension and part of the medical benefits and 401K stuff that IAM settles for is the same as that of SPEEA. So SPEEA has a lot of skin in the IAM settlement.
Early this year, Scott Carson- on meeting mr Goforth, made it clear he wanted to rid Boeing of the unions ! _ Cant find the article now- but I’m sure someone can.
Meanwhile, Boeing has no doubt hired union busters to spread fear and doubt FUD
http://www.nobusters.org/
9. Jacobin777 | October 14th, 2008 at 3:57 pm
I agree with Aurora……if Boeing is to be competitive in the playing field they need the best price/performance offers..the unions should have the right to bid..but just handing out the jobs to the unions for the sake of handing them out is ignorant and bordering on almost being unethical.
10. Reality check | October 14th, 2008 at 4:33 pm
I see a lot of comments on the IAM union out of touch with the world outside the walls of the Boeing factory. I feel this is true, we will not be able to guarantee jobs, it is not realistic in this century. I hear from more and more IAM members they need to go back to work to feed there familes and keep their homes, the same as I. I am not going to lose my house or sell off personal items, so the Union can just wake up and smell the coffee sometime shortly. I now see the IAM members that I hear whining about needing to work that voted against the contract. I am sorry my family and life are worth walking across the line shortly in these time of people being laid off across the country. GM just let another 2500 go today, where is the Union that saved them?
We keep this strike up and if it was my company I would outsource more and more. Why put up with a workforce that causes huge delays in what I am selling. Get real IAM members, we can not change the world, it will change us though if our Union keeps this up.
11. To Reality check | October 14th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Reality check needs to get a clue.
Are you willing to hand over your job to someone else that will do the job for less money and benifits that lives in another country?
How will you feed your family then?
Possibly move to that country?
After your job is gone you will have to find another job that pays less than what you are getting now. So now your new company takes your new job and sends it over seas again. So now you go get your new job, again for even less money and benifits. So Again If we do not stand together and fight for our jobs the mentioned above is not far away.
Lead by example.
Boeing Chiefs has shown us the way to wanting more. Corperate greed.
The more they stuff their pockets full of more money than they could spend in a life time the more we want the same.
12. "TOMAHAWK SIX NINER ECHO ECHO" | October 14th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Boeing clearly means to trash the IAM I would BET MY LIFE on it..and yet with all their ordnance and misinformation they have found a secure perimeter that they cannot readily approach to attack as our membership has it so HEAVILY defended. I have been at the Company for 25 years been laid off….been on strike..worked 737 NEXTGEN…747…767….777 and NEVER have I seen nor experienced a more vicious nor malevalent mindset on the part of management toward the rank and file than now…I would much rather go through another Tornado touchdown…than entrust ANYTHING to the company!! They WANT OUR hides tanned and on their walls
13. mike j | October 14th, 2008 at 9:20 pm
As a Boeing IAM worker, it is really hard to agree to a paycut, while management gives themselves raises.
So far, the more Boeing has outsourced, the later and crappier the parts have become, and the more they’ve outsourced labor, the more substandared the workmanship has become. (This is just in the last year or so.)
Eventually the planes will be total junk and will fall out of the sky.
If 787 ever does get built and flying, I’d be very worried about flying in it. Will it ever fly?
I got it that Boeing Management wants cheaper labor. So how come they don’t reduce their own pay first? (lead by example?) How come they give themselve more and more bonuses? And then say they can’t afford decent labor?
The big reason GM, Ford and Dodge failed is because (for decades) their Management couldn’t figure out that they should’ve designed and made cars and trucks that people want and that run good (good on gas) and last long (duh!), but instead they couldn’t figure that out, made crappy gas-guzzlers that fell apart. Now their management blames the worker for being overpaid, when it was the really management who failed, not the worker. Yet even now their management still gives themselves bouses.
It looks as if every American Corporation is pushing with all their might to kill off American Workrs, seems like insanity to me. We used to call it Treason, but now we call it “Globalization” or “21 Century” or “new reality”.
In the 1970’s, as a little kid, I watched in awe to see 737s and 727s blast off from Renton Plant. Couldn’t wait to get hired at Boeing. Now 2008, I feel a sort of disgust at Boeing.
I bet they break the Unions this time, and it will be bitter indeed. But I’ll stay out as long as I can. My picket-duty-card goes until mid-Novemeber. If the strike goes to Thanksgiving, I’ll then have to re-evaluate, maybe even cross. (which I probably won’t do, get another job instead, maybe say bye bye to Boeing for good, and watch it fall)
EVEN WITH the economy colapsing everywhere, I still don’t see Boeing’s logic in provoking a strike in the first place. Bad bad decision.
14. DonS | October 14th, 2008 at 10:06 pm
RE 12. “TOMAHAWK SIX NINER ECHO ECHO” | October 14th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
No need to bet your life - bet 10 cents and you still win
Note date
http://tinyurl.com/4xrxpt
Q&A: RAY GOFORTH–
SPEEA union chief at Boeing readies for fight—
JOHN GILLIE; john.gill—enewstribune.com—
Published: March 17th, 2008 01:00 AM | Updated: March 17th, 2008 05:50 AM—-
**What happened when you met with Boeing’s Carson and Kight? **
*Mr. Carson explained that he wanted to get rid of all unions at Boeing and that he intended to continue to support the efforts to bust the bargaining units where they could.*
** It was disappointing. I appreciated the candor. It did supply some clarity on these problems. I went into this hoping that we could partner to solve these problems, but the answer was “no.”**
A CONNECTION ?
SEE http://www.nobusters.org/
15. Aurora | October 14th, 2008 at 10:12 pm
TOMAHAWK SIX NINER ECHO ECHO”: “They WANT OUR hides tanned and on their walls”.
I would respectfully suggest to you that your real enemy is not the company headquartered in Chicago that provides you with a living, but the company headquartered in Toulouse that wants your utter annihilation.
16. Angel/MT-4 | October 14th, 2008 at 11:26 pm
This all reminds me of my former job working at a Fireplace/Stove Manufacturer. Management had this “brainy idea” of designing a new cast iron wood-burning stove. They decided to have China make the castings for $60.00/ea., and had them shipped here (mass containers got quarantened due to insect infestation and several containers return-shipped to China). The castings were very poorly manufactured with massive defects, chips in the enamel finish, rusted legs and parts due to condensation, etc. It took over a half a year and a temporary increase of new hires to rework the 1,000’s of stove stacking up in their warehouse and factory. While the company intended to pay $60.00, have them final-assembled here and turned over for more than $3K/ea. retail, that stove model ended up costing them way more than if they had of had our own employees build the stove from scratch or had the castings made here in the U.S. The product was a beautiful model, but the “idea” of trying to “save a buck” failed miserably.
We used to laugh in the 70’s at stuff with “Made In China” stickers on the bottoms and it became a popular joke to say “crap” was probably “Made In China”.
Sayings like, “You get what you pay for”, “Grass isn’t always greener on the other side”, “If it isn’t broke, don’t fix it” and, Prov. 11:6 - “the treacherous are caught by their own greed”.
Boeing has been very succesful up until now, but I forsee that instead of maintaining that success, they are headed for demise by their own self-destruction, not by the fault of a Union or Machinists, like they try to portray to the media. They may snow the public initially, but even the public will soon see who is really going to destroy a great company.
People try to bash the Union, but I beleive that only companies who delve in shady negotiations with their employees, and treat them poorly or have unsafe or poor working conditions, ever get infiltrated by a Union in the first place. If Boeing were as “Noble and respectful of their employees” as they claim, we would not need the IAM Union.
Like the poster said above, I too will be very scared to fly in Boeing aircraft of the future.
The BA stock price was $41.80 a couple days ago. That tells me that customers and shareholders alike are as scared as we are and are losing their faith in Boeing.
Wake up BOEING and smell the coffee, because you are burning it!
17. mike j | October 15th, 2008 at 8:39 am
I like bloggers 12, 14, and 16.
Blogger 16, well said!
If Boeing Management’s clear intent is to get rid of the Unions and bust them up (and doesn’t want to partner with them), then I see no reason to support Boeing anymore.
And if they do break the Unions, then clearly they intend to reduce pay forever to low low wages, (ie barely livable).
This means I ought to start looking for another line of work, if any can be found.
Bad thing is Boeing is just ONE example of the entire USA problem, probably anywhere I go to look for work will be more of the same (maybe not).
IF the strike is not over by Thanksgiving then I’ll start looking. Sounds like pretty good chance it won’t be. But I can only hope.
Personally, when the strike started, I paid rent ahead through December. I’ll have to scrimp on some debt-payments and life is going to get rough.
I’d rather get another job than cross.
(IF the Union were to break, ie many were to cross-the-line and eventually have no Union, that means any hourly worker would have zero recouses if they ever made a mistake or if Boeing HR department decided to hand out dissiplinary actions or if some manager didn’t like you, means anyone could get fired at Boeing’s slightest whim. And you would likely be slave-driven even more than what we experienced before the strike. So shows there is no good reason to cross or to cave-in under the pressures.)
If Boeing fails, it is there own stupid fault.
If I find another line of work which is “good enough” then Boeing loses one very skilled worker. Oh, well.
18. Joe Blow | October 15th, 2008 at 12:36 pm
Don’t you gedt it, Y2K came in a global fashion. Nations are bailing out their corruption and charging their people. You lived in an igloo if you think this mess is going to stop. We need help and we have no job. Boeing banking of those orders through AIG fell through. Whatever precrash orders they have like the Al Nippon for the 787 have not bailed out their banking structure at the price of their people. Our $2 trillion worth of retiremets went to bailout European banking. I have no idea who will do what to the rest and you want to talk about holding labor? You and I now owe what we don’t have. every time george b and associates step up and offer more money it is your wallet they are playing with.
19. Mark S | October 15th, 2008 at 3:41 pm
I think Boeing management is looking at the reasons for the demise of the Big 3 / Big 2 automakers and is trying not to follow the path they went down with their labor contracts. It’s a matter of principle for both sides, so I would expect a very long strike.
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