Richard Aboulafia Speaks
October 15th, 2007
Airbus and Singapore Airlines celebrate the delivery of the first Airbus A380-800. It’s been a long time coming, but the wait is all but over.
Ironic then, that prior to this handover, Airbus faces the embarassing prospect of more A380 woes. Reuters reports that 2008’s deliveries may not be met. It’s almost as if this big bird seems to love headlines for the wrong reasons.
One lucky customer bid just over $100,000.00 to have the pleasure of being a special guest aboard the initial delivery to Singapore Airlines and also to be the first guest to fly to Sydney aboard the A380 on its first revenue flight.
Opportunities such as that are one-off’s and rarely occur for everyone. Likewise, when the Dreamliner enters service, whoever is lucky enough to snare the first ticket aboard that All Nippon Airways flight will be part of history - flying aboard the world’s most advanced and fastest selling passenger airplane of all time.
Not surprising then, that the word itself, “guest” is a key element of the rewards and loyalty program by UAE airline, Etihad Airways, also called Etihad Guest.
For the here and now, there’s a special guest aboard here too.
Obviously the title gives it away, but I take a great honor in inviting one of my good friends, Richard Aboulafia.
Needing no introduction, Richard is the Vice President, Analysis at Teal Group.
If you’re unfamiliar with him, please click here to find out more.
Getting started, Richard has already spoken to BusinessWeek soon after Boeing announced its revised schedule for the 787 program and summarizes the project setback succinctly with the following:
Unlike most industry pretenders, Richard has a well-spirited reputation for calling things on the industry both sharply and accurately. Little wonder then, he is the de-facto industry Oracle.
The last few weeks in the industry have also revealed the first tranche of British Airways’ long awaited fleet renewal - an order billed as possibly the most important for 2007.
We started off our discussion with the news last week pertaining to the Dreamliner. After the October 10 conference call on the Boeing 787 rescheduling, Richard brought up some very noteworthy points - points not made in any other media publication or press release and shared exclusively here.
The 787 delay is different from the A380 delay in four very important ways:
Richard explains thus:
- 1. The 787 delay is purely logistical. The production challenges are daunting, but the design is said to be right on target in terms of weight and likely performance. By contrast, the A380 weight numbers were always high relative to aircraft capacity, and according to some customers–notably Emirates–it’s overweight. The A380 production numbers stay anemic for the next year probably because they have made (and are making) design modifications intended to remedy this problem. The first batch will likely be overweight, and the implementation of changes will suppress the ramp up.
- 2. The 787 has enormous broad commercial appeal in terms of both orders AND pricing. This incentivizes everyone in the supply chain, ensuring adequate investment by everyone as they look forward to reaping the benefits. A380 suppliers are merely incentivized by 25-30 planes per year and a likely total of around 300 aircraft.
- 3. There are no other important programs that require pressing attention and siphon off financial and engineering resources. Airbus needs to worry about the A350 XWB and A400M. This is particularly true because the A350 DOES have enormous broad commercial appeal–already it has more orders than the A380 has received over a much longer time period Boeing can stay focused on its single most important project.
- 4. One guy is in charge. Boeing might have needed to supervise some of its first tier suppliers a bit more closely, but they have the power to impose changes to the supply chain as they see fit. Airbus has two major power centers at the top who argue over work apportionment.
So that’s the 787 rescheduling dealt with, but what about the rest of the Airbus & Boeing product portfolio line up in the longer term?
Richard and I discussed these issues further. (For clarity, Richards responses are in italic).
1- Given that British Airways isn’t happy to order the Boeing 777-300ER in its current guise and has likely missed the “order boat” for the type, is it fair to assume that a possible 787-10ER and Y3 feature in BA’s plans along with more information on the A350-1000 as possible candidates for the replacement of the remaining 747-400 fleet when they place new orders in 2009?
Absolutely. BA will likely watch the 777NG/new design and A350-1000 battles play out, and they have the luxury of time. Their 777 fleet is pretty young, they can use their 787 slots to replace 767s and grow their route structure, and replace the oldest 747s with A380s. It’s a sound strategy.
2- I’m hearing news that the A350-1000 may yet go the way of the A340-600 and fall short on projected performance promises. In the wake of very little public information on the airplane, would you assume that Airbus may even elect to delay rushing this model into entry when little is known about what Boeing may or may not do vis a vis the 777-300ER, and instead concentrate on using the time and resources to better define A350-800/-900 and get them into service on time?
There’s a lot at stake with the -1000. The -800 looks useless against the 787-8/9. The -900 could be good against the 787-10, but we don’t have enough information yet, and in all likelihood they might be well matched (although if Boeing can get a 7500 nmi 313-seat design out of the -10, that will be tough to beat. The A350-1000 is the only potential headache for Boeing, and could force them to commit serious resources to a 777 replacement or major update.
That said, the A350-1000 might be tough to execute. Airbus should give it priority over the ineffectual -800. The biggest variable is engine performance, and that’s why they should try hard to get two competing engine providers. Funny thing–Rolls makes good engines, but the only widebodies built with Rolls as a sole source have been disappointments on the market–L-1011 and A340-500/600.
3- The A380’s costs have swelled to over $18bn and show no sign of abating. Without the freighter to help diversify the A380 portfolio, do you envisage a point where Airbus will either continue selling the type to recoup what it can or perhaps plug the product gap beneath the A380 and above the A350-1000 with a true 400 seat tri-class airplane?
Airbus really doesn’t have the financial resources to do a true 400-seat plane until 2020, at the earliest. That assumes the A350 family gobbles up all available cash and engineering until 2015, and is followed by an A320 replacement. For the next 15 years, Airbus will sell the great albatross at whatever price it can realize.
4 - Despite the 747-8I not selling as well as some people would like, the 747-8F continues to corner and dominate the new build large freighter market. Scott Carson mentioned previously that he didn’t envisage any new 747-8I orders for the remainder of 2007 - do you think that the model will come good in 2008 and who are the key clients that will get the ball rolling?
It won’t take much to make the 747-8 worthwhile. As a freighter, it’s in a class by itself. Assume 18 cargo orders annually, add just 5-8 pax, factor in pricing pressure against the A380, and it adds up to a very wise investment for Boeing. It also has lots of upside if Emirates, Cathay, or either of Japanese carriers go for it.
5- Similar to question 2, given that there is little A350-1000 information, if Boeing feels that the model is enough of a threat to the 777-300ER, is there a possibility that an all new airplane could be introduced to supplant both the 777 and 747 families, leaving the 787 to expand beneath it with the 787-10/ER?
Unquestionably. In fact, I would think they would look very closely at an all-new design spanning 340/400-seats, using 787 composite fuselage technology. The history of major upgrades is relatively mixed. Success include the 737NG and 747-400; failures include the MD-11, A340-500/600, and the original A350. More importantly, when Boeing launches an all-new plane (once a decade), it gets it right. Everyone involved knows that sales will be at least 1,000, and usually more.
6- While the 787 has got off to a stunning start for sales, the A350 is invariably going to be seen as playing “catch up”. At $16bn so far, and having seen the debacle over insider trading and burying bad news on the A380, do you fear that any such negativity for the A350 when production starts will damage and handicap the airplane, given that it is largely devoid of key blue chip clients already on the 787 waiting list? Furthermore, do you think that this budget will rise further and what impact do you see on pricing for the A350?
As we know, Boeing is in a fortunate position to be able to charge a handsome premium on the 787 for those customers wanting the airplane sooner rather than later- the A350 is still resting on a major Qatar Airways order and is not able to charge the same sort of price premium for an airplane that will be over a half decade late to market. At what point will Airbus have to abandon is desire for market share and realize that its profit that counts, not sales?
So far, there is a lot of uncertainty over the A350 in terms of final design and customer appeal. That’s what will make Emirate’s November decision very interesting. They have the power to endorse this plane and solidify its position; they also have the power to keep it a relatively marginal player in terms of customers. But despite its tremendous success, Emirates is a government creation with unlimited funding and relatively little domestic competition (so far). Most other carriers need to look much more carefully at operating costs relative to their competitors.
Airbus needs to move from a market share emphasis to a profit emphasis. Eventually, greater exposure to equities markets will force this change. Until that happens (ie, until EADS faces that greater exposure and pushes it down to Airbus) Airbus is quite logically emphasizing product development and market share. But Fairchild Dornier, Fokker, and other companies found out the hard way that reliance on a few major stakeholders for working capital could prove disastrous.
7- Skeptics voices seem to be growing louder in respect of a 787 EIS delay. In the grand scheme of things, the rather conventional A380 was delayed by two years. If the 787 is indeed delayed, the media will naturally make a “big deal” over it. From a demand point of view, do you envisage any significant delays and how will this play out with customers who have not yet ordered the airplane but are likely to do so- namely, the US legacy carriers like Delta, United and American Airlines.
I don’t see much alternative to the 787 if airlines want a new generation 250/300-seat long range aircraft. That battle has been decided in Boeing’s favor. The 310/380-seat battle is just starting. But the US majors seem to want planes in that smaller class, for perfectly valid historical reasons (ie, getting burnt with bigger planes).
8- With Open Skies heading quickly to reality in 2008, slot constraints at key European airports will mean airlines will want to keep more of their airplanes in the skies more of the time. How do you see the development of point-to-point travel using smaller airplanes going forward and whether the trend at key hubs will see a decreasing seat count per airplane rather than a shift to the A380, for which Airbus claims will beat the logjams?
Most airlines will opt for right-sizing, and for routes that avoid the most congested bubs. Despite constraints, I see no upside for the A380. BA’s situation at Heathrow should have made the A380 a theoretical slam-dunk; instead, Airbus had to very heavily discount just to sell 12 aircraft.
All in all, Richard and I found and covered a great deal of common ground among these and other issues.

Image courtesy of Wikipedia
Interestingly, while many “merchants of doom” have crossed the river Styx to cover the 787 setback in the same category as that of the A380 - it’s reassuring to see that despite these teething woes for such a radically new and revolutionary airplane - analysts like Richard call the scene in the best and most neutral light possible.
While the A380 will never accomplish major sales numbers compared to other long haul airplanes such as the 747 or 777, the logistical headache Boeing now has can be cured far more easily than the technical woes that beset the leviathan Airbus airplane.
Ironic then, that both the A380 and 787 represent those opposing market segments where one is contracting and the other continually expanding and fragmenting - yet both airplanes have been held back from timely service entry for a mixture of reasons.
I hope the above has been a valuable read - I’m sure any questions posed by respondents will equally be answered by Richard, time permitting!
My sincere and heartfelt thanks go out to both Richard and Teal Group for making this rendezvous possible. Rest assured, this is not the last - there is much more to come!
Sphere: Related ContentEntry Filed under: 787 First Flight, 787 Orders, 787 Premiere, 787 Rollout, Aeroplane, Aerospace, Air Transport, Air Travel, Airbus, Airbus A318, Airbus A319, Airbus A320, Airbus A321, Airbus A350, Airbus A380, Airlines, Airplane, Airplane Order, Airplanes, Airport, Airports, Aviation, BA, Boeing, Boeing 747-8, Boeing 777, Boeing 787, Boeing 787 Order, Boeing 787 Orders, Boeing 787 Premiere, Boeing 787 Rollout, Boeing Orders, Dreamliner, Dreamliner First Flight, Dubai, Dubai Air Show 2007, EADS, Emirates, Farnborough Air Show 2008, Fleet Replacement, FleetBuzz.com, General Electric, Jet Travel, Low Cost Airlines, Low Cost Carriers, Open Skies, Paris Air Show, Richard Aboulafia

19 Comments Add your own
1. Sarah | October 15th, 2007 at 8:22 am
Interesing that Aboulafia thinks that the A350-800 is not going to be as good as the 787-8 or 9.
Will Airbus gamble on leaving this as a sitting duck while the 787 snares many orders to focus on the XWB1000?
2. Modeling » Richard &hellip | October 15th, 2007 at 8:40 am
[...] Luke Plunkett wrote an interesting post today onHere’s a quick excerptIt also has lots of upside if Emirates, Cathay, or either of Japanese carriers go for it. 5- Similar to question 2, given that there is little A350-1000 information, if Boeing feels that the model is enough of a threat to the 777-300ER, … [...]
3. rhapsody | October 15th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
What great insight!
4. Jacobin777 | October 15th, 2007 at 3:17 pm
Thanks so kindly to both Boeing777 and Mr. Aboulafia…
Quite an interesting read and I do agree with most written above…
However, as Sarah has mentioned, why does Mr. Aboulafia believe the A358 will be a “dud” (so-to-speak), it has received quite a number of orders. In fact, as of today’s Airbus order book, they have more orders for A358’s than A359’s..even if the order book isn’t completely updated, it still shows that the A358 has sold quite a number of frames.
Again, thanks so kindly for the interview and I hope to see Mr. Aboulafia here once again.
Regards
5. Steve in Toulouse | October 15th, 2007 at 5:09 pm
I’m afraid Richard’s thoughts are up to his usual standard.
Lots of opinions presented as facts but with absolutely nothing to back them up. Not forgetting the old undisguised bias.
“The -800 looks useless”
“Airbus will sell the great albatros”
“But despite its tremendous success, Emirates is a government creation with unlimited funding”
How come all the major projects Airbus is working on are listed, but it seems the 787 is offered as the only thing Boeing has on its plate right now? Did Richard simply forget the 748 and various 767 tanker challenges that Boeing has right now?
Overall, the article and the “Thoughts of Chairman Aboulafia” are not worth the paper on which they’re written.
ADMIN EDIT - BOEING777
For the record, Richard and I didn’t discuss the 767 Tanker competition or the 747-8 families. It is hoped that these will be covered later.
6. rookie | October 15th, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Richard Aboulafia was so many times wrong about Airbus. Its bias to Boeing is well known and does not really show professionalism.
Not to talk about British Airways went for the A380 and not 748. If he want to be taken serious outside USA, he should try to be more objective and fair towards Airbus.
7. Aurora | October 15th, 2007 at 10:31 pm
The last thing I would call Mr. Aboulafia is “Anti-Airbus”. I can’t think of any industry analyst who has not criticized EADS’ mis-steps in the last two years on the A380. Mr. Aboulafia has been skeptical of the A380 business case from the very start. He has also (scathingly) criticized Boeing in the past. He is definitely an “equal opportunity” critic!
As for the A380s business case, the jury is still out. EADS has invested, depending on the source, USD$18-$20 billion (with a “b”). One French analyst was quoted by Reuters over the weekend as saying break-even has risen to 470–from the original figure of 220! In the aftermath of the BA “victory” over the 748, there were numerous reports in the media of heavy discounting by Airbus to win the deal. As for it being an “albatross”, well if it looks like an albatross, walks like an albatross, sounds like an albatross….
As I said, this thing still has years to play out. Airbus could have bet rightly on this thing and will ultimately make money on the project; then again, it may not. Personally, I hope I’m around when the jury on the A380’s business case reports their verdict!
8. kimshep | October 16th, 2007 at 3:23 am
An interesting read, indeed - but one beset by some seemingly inexplicable Boeing bias, IMO.
1. Much time is taken discussing the B787-10 and it’s dubious ‘charms’ but clearly, airlines (notably EK, QF and BA) are telling Boeing that there are problems with the concept of the -10, which may well result in it being a ‘dead-in-the-water’ design. Most carriers in this market are far more interested in the prospects of a B787-10ER / B787-11 or a HGW-version of the B787-8/9.
2. Interesting that Richard chooses not to comment directly on Boeing’s apparent willingness to try to maintain / promote the ageing ‘old tech’ B777 family, over the demonstrably superior prospects of the B787 ‘family’. As I’ve said before on FleetBuzz, this policy may well push customers towards the A350, in the medium term. Already, QF is making complimentary noises about the viability of the A350-1000 and BA is even acknowledging it’s appeal.
3. I am neither a Boeing or Airbus ‘cheerleader’. I feel that both companies have had their share of successes and duds .. but I question Richard’s commentary on Boeing’s “successful introduction” of new frames. One only has to look at the B747-300 series and the B767-400 to see that Boeing are clearly not infallible.
4. I also bristle a little about the commentary that Airbus needs to get “blue chip” customers on board with the A350 family. Signed orders from SQ etc are about as “blue chip” as you can get. What further ‘endorsement’ do you suggest ?
5. I also have some criticism of the reliance of the expectation that it is the 310 seat market that is where the next ‘battle’ will be fought. Clearly, the *real* battle is in the 350-400 seat market, where customers are already heavily assessing and looking for replacements for B747’s and B777’s. While Boeing dithers on how (and when) to selectively phase-out their B777-300 cash-cow family, the B777-200 family (with the exception of the -200LR) is in the death throes of being overtaken by the B787 family. In reality, how long can Boeing prolong a 17 year old B777-300 family ? Newer, faster, lighter, more economic competitors are on the way .. like it or not.
6. I also think that it is a major error to try and offset discussion or compare the A380 and B787. They are both new aircraft and that is where the comparison ends. They are entirely different families competing in and for entirely different markets.
7. While P2P seems to be in favour for the USA and Boeing, I would really love to see some objective commentary on H2H and iterations inbetween. With the US authorities currently looking to restrict traffic movements into such cities as NYC, surely this must affect Boeing’s binkered view on P2P? Clearly, the global market is continuing to be an amalgam of P2P and H2H, with all iterations inbetween being valid.
9. salary of BA | October 16th, 2007 at 5:17 am
aboulafia is anti airbus …not surprise ..lol
10. Mike | October 16th, 2007 at 9:08 am
I always enjoy Richard’s comments with this ‘interview’ no exception. I also applaud Boeing777 for his continued rise in stature as a budding journalist. Always a good read B777 but then, we are alike in our views.
By the way, I think RA calls the 380 an Albatros because of it’s apparent inability to make money for Airbus (so far and bleak propects to do so in the future), not it’s ability to make money for Airlines. Please correct me if this is wrong.
11. Another Richard | October 16th, 2007 at 10:31 am
Thanks for a very interesting article.
Such a pity that Mr Aboulafia’s opinions are so biased towards Boeing…
12. Antonio | October 16th, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Hummmmm…… Boeing is best…
Aboulafia is anti airbus … not surprise… but he works for Boeing.
ADMIN EDIT
Correction - Aboulafia works for Teal Group.
13. Victor Blythe | October 16th, 2007 at 7:01 pm
What an overly Boeing biased article. I got nausiated just reading it. To me it was pure Boeing propaganda garbage…. and I like BOTH
manufactures EQUALLY!!
14. Stratoliner777 | October 17th, 2007 at 3:22 am
It would be more appropriate to discuss on the merits of the article, as kimshep did, rather than engage in ad hominem attacks, as some commenters have here.
I do think the record shows that Boeing has made excellent major product launches. Although the 747-300 was not a major success, most notably because of not much in the way of range/performance improvements, its structural adaptations paved the way for the 747-400, the most successful 747 variant yet.
What has slightly clouded the Boeing lookout was the late 90’s/early ‘00 period. Yes, the 767-400 sold to just DL and CO, the 744ER only sold to QF, and the 757-300 and 717 were both of limited customer appeal. However these were small derivative updates, or holdovers, relatively speaking…not as much in the neighborhood of the MD-11 or the A345/346; Boeing kept to a very conservative development cost angle and got relatively modest results for a modest effort.
Now the big product launches…747-400, 737NG, 777, and now 787…these have been smashing successes. Will Boeing be able to continue the winning streak?
15. Kevin | October 18th, 2007 at 6:15 am
The 787 has more problems than Mr. Aboulafia’s knows. Is 6k lbs overweight a small problem? Boeing has lied for two years on the lateness of the 787. They are lying about the lateness of the 747-8. Without flight test how does anyone know the design is not a problem.
ADMIN EDIT
6k lbs overweight? Considering all reports Ive seen, the intial 6 or 7 frames will be overweight according to Boeings own internal estimates but will be on target for customers. Lest you forget, Emirates is still annoyed that despite the lies and 2 years of pussyfooting around on the A380, it is still 6 tons overweight.
In case you forget, the A380 is the first airplane to enter service with a wing design that failed below the industry standard of 150% design limit load. Despite a 2 year setback, Airbus has patched it up but failed to retest and validate its airworthiness. But of course, Airbus bosses were all too interested in cashing in on the EADS woes to worry about that, as the French Regulator AMF will ultimately discover.
I’d like to, as I’m sure many others would too, see your evidence for the 747-8 being late too - and which model(s) you refer to.
Its a darn shame that people have rounded up on Richard when instead he should be commended for his open views here. He didn’t have to share his opinions with some of the inane one line replies seen here - but he did all the same. I wonder where these critics are over the 6 year delayed A350?
Selective critics galore with no substance as usual.
16. Aurora | October 18th, 2007 at 11:59 pm
Well, if nothing else, all the critical comments have put the lie to the notion that comments are censored on this blog!
I always look forward to reading Mr. Aboulafia’s comments. Some of these posters conveniently forget, or are ignorant, of Boeing’s problems in the late ’90s & even later, when Mr. Aboulafia was very critical of Boeing’s mis-steps. Unfortunately, these boards, forums, blogs, etc., have devolved into Europe vs. the U.S., and some of these critics, with little or no knowlege of aviation (or, let’s face it, they don’t have a clue what they’re talking about), need to run their mouths to fit their world view. Let’s wait a few years to see if Mr. Aboulafia is correct. After all, John Leahy says he can see them selling 800+ in 20 years. I’m willing to cut him some slack, even though I disagree. By the way, was that French analyst quoted by Reuters a few days ago that stated the A380 break even has risen to 470 units “biased”? Is Mr. McVittie “biased” when he states there’s more power in his hair dryer than in Power 8? Are the news reports that allege that British Airways paid less than $140 million apiece for their A380s “biased”? Or, are these merely inconvenient–and annoying–truths?
17. boeing777 | October 19th, 2007 at 7:13 am
For the record, the question about the 787 delay was posed PRIOR to the news on October 10.
18. Airbus A380-800 Enters Se&hellip | October 26th, 2007 at 8:21 pm
[...] A380 was a big mistake then and it is a big mistake now” said Richard Aboulafia of Teal [...]
19. Strategic Musings - Labor&hellip | October 29th, 2007 at 5:13 pm
[...] to market have reached the point where they are almost too much for one company to handle. As Mr. Richard Aboulafia and other analysts have noted, going forward, the 787 model will likely be industry template for [...]
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